Monday, June 30, 2014

Free Will and Predestination Coexist Side By Side

I am a rare breed in that I believe that both free will and predestination exist as controlling forces in our lives. Yes, I do believe that God’s will brought about the acts of Hitler and the sacking of Constantinople, as well as all the heroic acts by all the individuals resisting these horrendous acts.


It is the duality I see in God’s creation, His ability to plan the whole thing out, to have it scripted down to the smallest detail, yet God, in His omnipotent power is able to let the creature create itself totally while living its completed predetermined life. This is true of all the critters God gave a choice too, for the worm up to man. When a worm can turn right or left in its search for nourishment and sex, it must make the choice, and by so doing becomes that which God planed. I, no less then the worm, must choose each decision placed before me, and by my free-will decisions I become that which God has scripted for me. Once a decision has been made it cannot be unmade.

As I see it each decision was made once. And once only and came with God’s act of creation. Everything that exist, exist now, or it does not exist at all. All of time is laid out like the pages in a book or the frames in a film, form beginning to end; it is God’s awareness that brings the book alive as we pass that point in the story.

Let me reiterate, once a decision is made, it is made for all of eternity, not half of eternity. That means every decision I ever made had been made for all times sake on the moment of the decision. As I was created, everything I will ever be was created. Tomorrow does not happen be chance, it is the unfolding of the Story. It is line-by-line, day-by-day that I live, but the Story is whole and complete from its creation. From Everlasting to Everlasting never changing, it cannot change, because it contains everything that could possibly be. If it is not in the story it cannot be, not ever. The Story is longer and in more detail then we can ever imagine, for it is in truth the Never Ending Story, and every tell ever told, or ever to be told, is in the Story, it only takes the eyes of God and his Word to bring it to life. When his Words are spoken as his Eyes see the Story time is brought into existence and the Story is lineated into a time line. But because it is stretched in to a line for the telling and living, does not mean that all time does not exist at the same time, just as all the words of a song are present at the beginning of the song, still the song must be sung for the song to be experienced.

It through God’s plan that death came into this world "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:53).’
1Pe Ch. 1 v 23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. v24: For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Rev. Ch. 12 v17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Here in lie the basics of my argument: Adam and Eve were borne into corruptible flesh and to be born again into the incorruptible, Satin, at God’s command, went to war with the off springs of Eve, bringing death into the world, for without the fall they never could be a need for Jesus Christ, and the incorruptible would never have been obtainable. Maybe God could have done it another way, but He chose to do it this way, and all of history has been the working out of mankind’s salvation. No amount of additional faith could have prevented Adam from being tempted and bringing about the fall.
And as to whether or not anyone has a choice about being saved:

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Tts 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Remember the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. His brothers, with evil in their hearts threw him into a pit, then sold him into slavery to be rid of him because of the love that their father had for him. Joseph was taken down into Egypt where, because of his attitude, dream interpretation ability, and demeanor he became adviser to Pharaoh and was put into the position that allowed him to save his family from the famine that struck the land for seven years. Joseph could have been all vindictive and mean when his brothers came before him, but you know the story, the tribe was preserved and Jesus was born. God’s plan for Joseph was worked through the evil in his brother’s heart. It is hard to see how Joseph could have went into Egypt, become Pharaoh’s right hand man, and put into a position to save his family’s life without first having been sold into slavery.

It was predestined for Joseph to be in Egypt and have a position that would enable him to preserve the Chosen People, but the acts of Joseph’s brothers were act of free will, as were the decision of the slavers who decision led them to the pit that Joseph had been cast. What do you get when you have million and millions, even billion and billions of free wills trying to determine the course of their lives. Do you not get a lot of friction, confusion, and interference? You would if everyone truly had free will, but when you consider it, no one can have true free will because they seldom have anything to do with the choices that are presented to them after they pick a direction, and that direction is picked as they come out of the womb. They do have an illusion that they are the masters of their souls, but what person in his sixties dreamed of the place when he was twenty that he found himself today? Circumstances buffeted him million upon millions of times in his life. Coincidences shaped his choices time and time again. He was born in this country, what choice in that? He was born into that family, what choice in that? What choice did he have in the school he went to when he was a child? How did he decide to go to work or go to collage? Was that choice not made largely by the circumstances of his life then? Were his parents rich, poor, or indifferent to the value of an education? Was their a depression going on?

Either we believe that God has a Plan, and everything is going according to this plan, or Darwin is in charge and everything is as it is just because of chance. The kind act done to us, the forgiveness bestowed upon us, all the product of just random molecules that swarmed together and happen to start reacting together to make a star of just the right type, that some how spawned a planets with just the right size, temperature range, etc., that fostered life in a batch of chemicals that just happen to come together at just the right time and under just the right conditions, and in just the right portions to instigate an spontaneous ignition of a life then by accidental chance it continue to become more and more organized, more complex until man walked the face of the earth. And become good or evil all by chance.

But I regress, God had to get Joseph down into Egypt to save the Tribes of Israel in the future so he worked through Joseph’s brothers bad evil acts in order to work His plan. This begs the question of fault and blame. Again I ask are Joseph’s brother’s responsible for the evil they preformed if in their acts they were performing the Will of God?
Before you make up your mind go a little further into the story of Israel’s delivery into and out of slavery. When God sent Moses to Pharaoh with His demands to let his people go how many times did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? Is Pharaoh to be held accountable for defying God’s will when it was God Himself who set Pharaoh’s heart to do as he did? Taken even to the death of all Egypt’s firstborn sons, and on unto the death of Pharaoh.

Can Pharaoh be held to blame in any of the pelages that were called down upon Egypt? Did Pharaoh or Joseph have any free will to deify God’s plan? "And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay My hand upon Egypt, and bring forth Mine armies, and My people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth Mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them"

Some might argue that God did not plan for Joseph’s brothers to sell, but just worked through their evil to do good. How, pray, else was God going to get Joseph, an uneducated tribesman, with no ambition other then being a herdsman, from the Land of Canaan into the position of the second most powerful person in the greatest nation on the face of the earth? Consider the constrain which God has put on Himself to work within the framework of history to enact His plan. He does not resort to supernatural means to bring about very many events. Mostly God works within the hearts and minds of people to bring about His Kingdom. God does not go “Pooff” and change you from a truck driver to the Sectary of Defense in the wink of an eye.

If then Free Will is a demonstrable false idea why is held in such high esteem? It has dawned upon me that the reason we cling so dearly to the idea of Free Will is to be able to give credit and lay blame. To hold people accountable for their act through either rewards or punishment and balance out their account. But if the Glory is God’s then what part of doing good is to be credited to man, and by the same reasoning, what part of doing evil is to be credited to man?

If Darwinism is correct then this blame is a totally wrong-headed approach. To punish someone for acts they committed because of how their parents raised and treated them, or because of how their DNA predetermined their action is an evil in itself. What the Darwinist would have you do is treat the wrong doer as someone who had been made sick by circumstances outside their control. If you fix their environment, and give them good examples they will fix the error of their ways.

Most Christians pooh-paw this conception and condemn it as mollycoddling. When someone does wrong they want the perpetrator to acknowledge their wrongdoing, accept the blame, admit culpability, and be held accountable. If someone does something good they feel it is only right that person receives acclaims and kudos. In all of this they lay credit or blame up based upon the belief that the person acted under their own Free Will. Although many of them give lip service to the idea that God has a plan for mankind and works through man to realize that plan, when they see the plan in action they want to take the credit away from God and give it to the actors who follow his script. To God belongs the Glory and the Power.

Even the two prisoners who had been throne in jail with Joseph had to be scripted. One had stole the other had not. God sent dreams to each, Joseph interpreted both dreams with the abilities that God had given him. It was the cup bearing recounting of Joseph’s ability to correctly interpret dreams that took him into the position that enabled him to save his tribe. Had the one had hot been tempted to steal from Pharaoh, if the circumstances had not conspired to insured an innocent was arrested with the guilty (and not just any innocent, but one that had the ear of Pharaoh) then Joseph would have stayed in prison and the tribe would have starved to death and Jesus would have never been born. "Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: For God did send me before you to preserve life" (Gen. 45:5).

You have three ways you can look at that story: First you can believe the story is just a work of fiction and the plot worked as it did because it was wrote that way. Next you can believe that the story is true, but each event (being sold into slavery, being throne in prison, the innocent and guilty being put in prison, correct interpretation of the dreams, etc.) was completely true, but each happened accidentally with nothing to guide the juxtaposing of the events to the salvation of the Tribes of Israel but happenstance. Finally you can believe that God has a plan and each act was the enactment of that plan.

How you interpret this story determines how you view life, or is it that how you view life will determine how you interpret the story. The truth is you do not get to decide what you believe. God has given your beliefs to you, either by the world or by Jesus. Even if you are careful you can be blinded to God’s plan by you indignant sense of justice and see only the unfairness of the person who had to steal and be executed so Joseph could be placed in charge of Egypt’s grain production. Just remember, "For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Rom. 9:15).

If then, I know you will ask, if God has set us to sin then why does he hold us to blame for that sin? I will let Paul answer that question; “Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" (Rom. 9:20-21). "In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own Will" (Eph. 1:11).

The last nail in the coffin of Free Will is the belief that God has a foreknowledge of all that will ever happen. If God has an absolute true knowledge of the future then Free Will cannot order a change in God’s knowledge. If it is know afore then all that can be done it that which is know to be done. You can get around this by denying God has foreknowledge, but no other way. "Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).

God made us as we are and we are weak in the flesh. If we do not get to decide what we believe then what are we but clay? It was from dust that we came and into dust, which we will return. Fatalism? Yeah, for sure! No need to try then? Just you try and get out of it! We will do God’s Will and happily believe it to be our own. You cannot choose to see the Truth, the Truth will choose you to see if it will. "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them? ... To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has NOT been given." (Matt.: 13:10-11).

That you have a will cannot be disputed, as discussed earlier, you must will all purposed motion of your body. You do not walk without an act of will. But as we have discussed before, all choices placed before you for your will to act upon is provided be a chain of events that at best you have only had marginal control over. How free can your will be when you have little choice in the choices placed before you is the question. If you ever did anything, then it was yours to do from the begging of time. And if you are ever to do anything it is not yours to avoid, just yours to do. Once something is done, it is done forever. There is no half of forever; it was forever long before it was done. How you react to the choices placed before you was determined for all times sake before you were born by the natural, God Willed, interaction between your strengths and weakness and the opportunities to do act according to your heart’s desire. Your nature has led you through the choice that have been placed before you until you find yourself in my vain glory reading these words.

Will of God

Will of God

God’s Creation does not stop at the wilderness. His mountains are majestic, His oceans breathtaking, His sky grandiose, but is not the best of the nest builder yet too His Creation? And the ant’s and termite’s home a part of His Creation? Why then are not the cities of man any less the creation of God? Man can plan but God disposes, as He will. If He takes a mind He can stop any Tower of Babylon He wishes. So why do so many disdain the works of man as outside the will of God?

Cannot you find His plan in the ways of the people going about their daily lives just as well as you can walking in a park? By the way, that park is not natural; it is an artifice of man made to look as someone thought a natural area should look. God did not put those wooden planks on the ground that you walk on, nor did he pick the path the trail is laid out any more then He picked the twist and turns in the ant’s tunnels, but He did make the builder, and he does have a plan.

Is a hermit living in the wilderness somehow holier then an office girl making an honest living? What make denying your self a holey act? Was not the Last Supper a feast? Did not Christ perform his first miracle at a party, and made the wine so they could party on? I do not know how one could live a live outside the glass castle and not become a bit jaded. We sally forth with great expiations only to meet defeat time and time again. The victories that we do manage are dwarfed by the dauntless on the task yet to be realized, one day at a time, just one step at a time is the way of the trip, but we want the world, and we want it now. In is in the accumulation of small gains in which our progress is made. Got the kids through high school, paid the taxes, the rent is paid. Ah, life. Mundane and prosaic! It is in the details that we live, but in the dream that we score.

The dishes have to be washed, but to dance away the night, to watch the sun set over the Pacific from Hawaii. But tomorrow work, and another day spent just to get to the next day, into the boredom of existence because the joy to be found in the mundane is lost in the dream. The dishes are to be washed because a fine dinner was just eaten. You have to work to pay the rent on the house you wanted so badly. In your work is there not joy to be found in the serving of those who are willing to pay you to do what they cannot readily do for themselves or prefer not to do? To live a joyful fulfilled live, you must rejoice in the details, dive into where the Devil lives, drive him out and make it your joy.

If living outside the castle is hard, consider living in one, your privileges can well can lead you to believe that you are the source of your wealth and that you are the captain of your soul, and the maker of your fate. Even if God is not the Creator one can see, if one cares to look, that everything that happens was dependent on something else happing.

"You see, the past is past and the future is yet to come. That means the future is in your hands - the future entirely depends on the present. That realization gives you a great responsibility." -- h.h. the 14th dalai lama

If this is, as the 14th Dalai Lama asserts, true then the present is totally dependent on the past, and everything we do is determined by that which has passed before. You were set on the path that you now find yourself at the dawn of creation. Being born in the U. S. provides one set of actions that are not available in India. You are free to choose, but only to choose from that which is presented to you to choose.

The poor person choices are vastly different from those of a rich person but both are shaped by the circumstances they find themselves. The rich person may follow a path that leads his to desolation while the poor person may find a path that leads him to riches and fame, but neither is free to shape himself as he sees fit, rather his act are determined by what acts upon him.

If you find yourself having to “try very hard” to stay on the right path then you have yet to come to an understanding of what the right path is. And the problem with living God’s will to the best of your ability is that God does not choose, you do. How are you to know what God’s will is. Does He tell you? How? Through the Bible? Through preachers?  Through your parents? Do you truly understand scripture enough to take guidance from it? Does not the preacher’s have the same problem knowing God’s will as you? Are not your parents the children of their culture just as you are their child?

How many times have you heard a preacher praying for the forgiveness of sins? Is this not praying in vain? Does that question strike you as strange? Why? Why should you have to pray for something that has already been given? If Christ died so that your sins could be made as white as snow, what work do you have to do to receive this? Rather then asking God for something He has already granted, we should be thanking Him for so great a gift.

What can you, a mere human, do to negate the Will of God? If He has willed that your sins be forgiven what can you do to put this asunder, by not accepting the forgiveness? But Christ, Paul, and John say in the New Testament, the believers are God's elect. They are called the elect because God chose them to be saved Matt 22:14; John 6:37, 39; 15:16, 19 ; Acts 13:48; Rom 11:5; Thess 1: If God has chosen those whom He will save, how can anything you may or may not do changes God’s will?

What did Christ call upon you to do? He said that you were to accept Him as the Way, profess His name before men, and to treat you neighbor as yourself, and to love God above all else. Does this sound like a hard path to follow? And remember, you cannot work your way to heaven! If it is your acts that earn your salvation, then why did Christ die? If you acts cannot save you can they damn you?

When Christ forgave your sins by way of the cross did He only forgive the sins that you had committed up until you accepted Him? Or did He forgive all of your sins? If He forgave all of your sins how can you backslide? As Paul said, in Romans 11; v6, “Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.“ And in v32 :”For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.” And in Romans 4; v5: “But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares righteous the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness.” And lastly in Romans 5; v14: “For sin will not rule over you, because you are not under law but under grace. v15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not! v16 Do you not know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey--either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

It is not the act that enslaves you, rather your desire to do the act that leads you down the wrong path but how much is the choosing of that path is in the hands of the walker? “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Rom 9:21.

Friday, June 20, 2014

Soul Sleep or Imeadent Transportation to Paradise


The question is whether the soul sleeps until the resurrection, or if it goes to Paradise at the time of death. Here I have to delve into the subject deeper that just 2 Corinthians, Ch. 5: 6-8, “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:” which I will get to in due course.

The apologist for immanent transportation to Paradise use  Peter, Chapter 2 Peter to help make their case, but Peter is talking about the believer’s being led astray, however it is  a non sequitur argument.  Verse 1 set the stage, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

So when Peter gets down to verse 4-9 he is still talking about the pearls of those who would lead the faithful astray, then in 4-11 where he says “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the Day of Judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.”

Those who do not believe in Sole Sleep pounce, see!  But what Noah was saved from was the destruction of his life of which the other inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha had to suffer. Noah was not whisked away to Paradise, rather he walked away from the destruction, giving his wife the opportunity to look back and turned into a pillar of salt. The non-Soul Sleep apologists interpret verses 8 and 9 “(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” to mean that the believer will, at death, will go to Paradise instead of the grave, a truer interpretation is to take it to mean that God will give His elect the power to not be led astray by the false prophets.

Then they (I will use 'they' from now on instead of non-Soul Sleep apologists) use this parable that Jesus told in Luke 16:22-31, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.  And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'  But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'  And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house- for I have five brothers- so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'  But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'  And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'  He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Christ told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are fallacious and misleading. Here I will go through the parable to see what Christ was truly teaching.

Those who insist that this is not a parable, but a true, literal story Christ told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion. First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life. Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself. If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?

If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up? Additionally, if hell (as it is traditionally taught) is an abyss of fire and brimstone, where sinners are tormented forever, does anyone really believe that one drop of water would relieve the pain and anguish of someone suffering in its flames?

These are just some of the difficulties we encounter when we try to make the account of Lazarus and the rich man literal, instead of realizing that it is a parable. If it is a true story, then all of the things Christ said must be factual. If all the points of the story are not literal, then we must view this tale as an analogy Jesus used to teach larger spiritual truth.

This brings us 2 Corinthians, Ch 5: 6-8, “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” But if we look up in verse 1 in this chapter, “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” We see that it is Heaven that Paul is talking about, not Paradise.

From there they go to Philippians 1:23–24, “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.” Or as ‘proof. Biblia.com’ who puts it this way:

 “Conclusion: Those who desire that Christ may be magnified in their bodies have a holy indifference whether it be by life or death and may rejoice in all their tribulations as Christ’s witnesses, knowing that the Word of God cannot be Imprisoned and that though things do not turn to their comfort in this world, by God’s grace, they will be made to turn to the salvation of others.” In other words, Paul is not struggling with whether to die and go to Paradise to be with Jesus, rather he is unconcerned if he lives or dies as long it is in service to our Lord.

They will go to bring up Philippians 1, where Paul is describing “departing and being with Christ” before the resurrection, for there is no mention of the Last Day or the final resurrection in the immediate context.” But Paul does not say how long after his departure before he would be with Christ: "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:16, 17. Also See 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 and Tim.4:7, 8.

If no-one goes to be with Christ till after the resurrection, how would it have been better for Paul, so far as he was concerned, to depart then, rather than live on? As no cognizance is taken of the lapse of time, after a person becomes unconscious in death see Eccl. 9:5 and Ps. 146:4, though 2,000 years should elapse before Paul's resurrection, it would seem to him but the twinkling of an eye.

I will respond their interpretation of Luke 23:43 and then terminate this discussion, bty I am not a Seventh Day Adventists.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” This I have no bone to pick with, I believe that Jesus took him to Paradise with him. But some don’t, they say if the phrase is re-punctuated it can be interpreted differently:

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.” See the difference in understanding the placements of the comas can make?
1 Corinthians 15:3-4: “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” So, according to this verse, Christ didn't rise from the dead until the THIRD day after His death on the cross. Do you now see the problem with the statement: "TODAY you will be with Me in paradise"? Well, maybe Christ went to heaven when He died? The answer to that question is found in the verse in John 20:17,”Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am NOT YET ascended to My Father.” So Jesus had risen from the dead on the third day after His death, and meets Mary and says to her, "I have NOT YET ascended to My Father". So do we have a contradiction with what Jesus said to the thief and what actually happened? We know we cannot question the truthfulness of Christ, because He is without sin and perfect. So we must look for harmony between His statements.

With this I bid you adieu, you will have to make up your own mind.  I believe that the soul sleeps until it is resurrected. And do not believe that you can use the Bible to prove otherwise to do so you will have to explain I Thessalonians 4:13-14, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."